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Traverse to Station 5

Corrected Transcript and Commentary Copyright © 1995 by Eric M. Jones.
All rights reserved.
Scan credits in the Image Library.
Aclips by Dave Shaffer.
Last revised 8 June 2010.

MP3 Audio Clip starting at 145:55:54 ( 14 min 59 sec )

145:56:09 Cernan: Okay, Jack, I'm going to make a very sharp right turn here, because I do not want to go down that hill (into the crater).

145:56:18 Schmitt: Okay. We're moving, Houston.

145:56:21 Parker: Roger. You're moving exactly 37 seconds early.

[As indicated by the dash lines in the walkback diagram ( 50k ) they had to leave by about 5 hours 24 minutes, which is about 145:57. Now that they will drive nearly three kilometers toward the LM at a much higher average speed than the assume walkback speed of 2.7 km/hr, walkback will no longer be important constraint for this EVA.]
145:56:28 Cernan: Early!? I could have gotten that dark mantle on the other side of that crater. That's all it would have taken me.

145:56:35 Schmitt: So you saw a radial orange (soil distribution inside the crater wall), huh?

145:56:38 Cernan: Yeah, it was. Radial, Jack. You could see it very...It'll be in the pictures. Oh, man, I can't drive into that heading (because of sunlight reflection off the LCRU.) Let me get my...

[Gene will drive 1.5 kilometers east from Shorty to get to Victory Crater, where they will make a very brief stop to deploy the seismic charge. However, because of the bright Sun, Gene will tend to tack, turning slightly north and then slightly south to avoid the worst of the glare.]
145:56:45 Schmitt: That was on the inside of the crater?

145:56:47 Cernan: On the inside rim of the crater.

145:56:49 Schmitt: Yeah, that's where the surface stuff keeps slumping off as it's exposed, probably.

[Jack and Gene had both been so busy that they hadn't been able to listen carefully to each other's conversations with Bob. In Gene's case, he had completely missed the fact that Jack had already sampled the boulder; and, here, Jack wants to confirm the details of Gene's observation - which he may have only half heard - of the radial pattern of orange soil.]

[Schmitt - "I can't say I remember this exactly, but I'm confident that, as we were driving away and I was finally taking a deep breath, I was beginning to review the thirty minutes we'd had at Shorty and what it all meant. So I wanted to make sure I understood what Gene had seen."]

145:56:56 Parker: Quite a station, men. We thought...

145:56:58 Cernan: I'm going to get myself...Okay. I'm Min.

145:56:59 Parker: ...Station 2 was a good station! (Pause)

145:57:05 Cernan: Okay, I'm Min. Man, I'll tell you, that heading is going to put us right...Okay, Bob, give me a...Dang. Wait a minute.

145:57:15 Parker: The heading you should be generally taking...

145:57:17 Schmitt: Where we at?

145:57:18 Parker: ...toward Victory is 090, Gene.

145:57:23 Cernan: Okay, can you give me a bearing and range at Victory?

145:57:27 Parker: Okay. Stand by.

145:57:28 Schmitt: (To Gene) Did you get the TGE read?

145:57:30 Cernan: Yeah, I did. I got it read. They got everything (they wanted at) that station; but not everything I'd like to give them.

145:57:36 Parker: Okay, it's going to be...

145:57:37 Schmitt: Houston...

145:57:38 Parker: ...105 and 3.1.

[They will actually make their stop at 106/3.2. Houston has again revised it's estimate of the SEP transmitter location and, indeed, now knows where it is to high accuracy.]
145:57:41 Cernan: Okay. (Pause) Man, I tell you that LCRU is terrible when it flashes into you.

145:57:48 Schmitt: Well, you can always zigzag.

145:57:50 Cernan: Yeah, that's what I've got to do. I've got to tack into that Sun. (Pause)

[Cernan - "Driving up-Sun was mean. It was like what happens in flight when the Sun's directly overhead and you look down. You just lose your visibility because of the glare."]
145:58:00 Schmitt: I got it.

145:58:02 Cernan: Okay. We got to go to Victory.

145:58:08 Schmitt: Houston, I didn't have time to really think at that station; but that could...I think, based on having seen the alter(ation)...If I hadn't seen that alteration and all I'd seen was the fractured block on the rim - which looked like the stuff (the blocks) in the bottom - I might have said it was just another impact (crater). But having all the color changes and everything, I think we might have to consider that it could be a volcanic vent.

[Schmitt - "I started to talk too soon. I should have waited a few minutes; but I imagine the adrenaline was still flowing. I was trying to get to a point in my thoughts where I could start to interpret a little bit."]
145:58:43 Parker: Roger. It surely was different, anyway.

145:58:46 Schmitt: I'm not sure how we prove it. We didn't have time to prove it.

145:58:53 Parker: We noticed. (Pause) I guess that's the breaks of the game, sometime.

145:59:03 Cernan: Hey, Bob, I forgot your numbers at Victory. How about giving them to me again?

145:59:05 Parker: Okay. 105, 3.1. And it'll be a heading of 090...

145:59:11 Cernan: Okay. Thank you.

145:59:12 Parker: ...that's the general heading in that direction.

145:59:15 Cernan: Okay. 105, 3.1.

145:59:19 Parker: I guess we always have Station 9 to look forward to, guys. That may be the same thing...We'll probably be out of time when we get to that one, too. (Pause)

145:59:25 Cernan: Nobody likes a pessimist. (Long Pause)

[From the evidence of the overhead photography, there was a suggestion - as had been made for Shorty as well - that Van Serg Crater could be a volcanic feature. A visit to Van Serg (Station 9) is planned for EVA-3.]

[Schmitt - "We were pretty quiet in here (for about forty-five seconds) and it seems to me that we were in a bit of a letdown after Shorty. We'd been on an emotional high and had been going so fast and needed to stop talking and take a deep emotional breath."]

[Cernan - "Being on the Rover was one of the few places where you could relax. Physically, you were constrained and had to relax. The only thing I had to do was drive - which took a little more attention than usual because of the Sun - and observe as best I could. Sometimes, not talking is very restful. When you're talking - particularly in a case like this, you've got to think; and thinking takes energy. And, after a while you get tired of hearing yourself talk. We'd done an awful lot in the last few minutes at Shorty and we needed to rest both mentally and physically."]

146:00:11 Cernan: Hey, Bob, a note on those (battery) radiators: I have been dusting the covers at every stop, whether that's any help or not.

146:00:19 Parker: Okay; we copy that. (Pause)

146:00:27 Schmitt: Okay, sports fans. We're still about on the...Well, I think we moved...Yeah, we moved out into the Tortilla Flat area, I guess. (It's) not very flat.

146:00:43 Parker: That's affirmative. (Pause)

[In the overhead photographs, Tortilla Flats is a dark area between the main body of the light mantle to the west and a thin finger of light mantle to the east.]
146:00:50 Cernan: Those kind (of shallow craters) I can go through...If I can see them coming.

146:00:54 Schmitt: 102, 3.8. And where's Victory?

146:01:01 Parker: Dead ahead.

[Schmitt - "Victory is a 'V'-shaped depression that was probably made out of three craters. It commemorates Winston Churchill. Although it's a political symbol, I think we actually got that one by the nomenclature committee."]
146:01:02 Cernan: Boy, Victory is going to be subtle, I'll tell you. (Pause) Bob, how long we been out?

146:01:12 Parker: Stand by. 5 (hours) plus 26 (minutes); 5 plus 26.

146:01:15 Schmitt: Hey, Bob, I recommend that, if we ever do this again, let me get off and pick the charge off when we want to deploy it. It really adds to the fatigue of the hands.

146:01:35 Parker: I tell you...

146:01:36 Cernan: Couldn't you just hook it onto your fingers?

146:01:37 Parker: We copy that, Jack. And Charlie (Duke)'s got a big smile on his face here. (Pause)

[At the House Rock stop on Apollo 16, at 167:32 of that mission, Duke hooked his sample bags onto his middle finger because the mounting bracket on his camera had failed.]
146:01:49 Schmitt: (Dramatically) Mark my words.
[Schmitt - "This sounds like something that somebody might have said repeatedly during training, but I don't remember anything about it."]
146:01:52 Cernan: There's Victory over there, I'll bet. See that's the long edge.

146:01:56 Schmitt: Yeah, yeah. I can't see over there, but...

146:01:57 Cernan: Okay.

146:01:58 Schmitt: ...got too much Sun in my eyes.

146:02:01 Cernan: That's the right way to go. That'll be about it, too, (on range and bearing). (Pause)

146:02:08 Cernan: Man, I don't think I've really seen the LM, except (garbled)...

146:02:10 Schmitt: (Garbled) big rock in front of you.

146:02:12 Cernan: I got it.

146:02:13 Schmitt: Okay. (Pause) Well, you can't tell much about the countryside going into the Sun, can you?

[Schmitt - "What I had hoped to do, as we crossed the edges of the light mantle on either side of Tortilla Flat, was to pick up anything at the contact that we might use to identify it. And, in retrospect, because we hadn't been able to see a sharp contact on the (down-Sun) drive to Station 2, with the Sun in my eyes there was just no way I was going to make any useful observations in here. So that's why there's not much information coming out of us at this point. Going down-Sun to Station 2, we had the highest albedo reflections coming right back at us and we could see the brighter crater walls on the light mantle. But going into the Sun you're mostly looking into shadow and there's also the obscuration caused by the dust on your visor."]
146:02:21 Cernan: Put your upper visor down. That'll give you a whole different perspective.

146:02:26 Schmitt: It doesn't vise very well. It's stuck. (Pause)

[Schmitt - "The upper visor was the middle (laterally) part of the visor assembly that had a sunshade on it. It was fitted in a slot and you could grab the sunshade and pull it down. Mine had gotten a lot of dust in it."]
146:02:42 Cernan: That's got to be Victory over there, Jack.

146:02:43 Schmitt: Yep. (Long Pause)

[Jack's next five photos are AS17-133- 20269 to 20273. Victory can be seen just above the TV camera in the last of these.]

[Cernan - "In looking at some of the pictures that Jack took during the drive, you see things in one picture that you didn't see in the last. Everything was new. Every time you went over another hill, every time you went over a saddle, or went into another valley, you came into something that you didn't know was there or didn't expect to look like it actually looked. It was true exploration of a virgin territory; particularly with the mobility that the Rover gave."]

146:03:03 Cernan: We're at 103, 3.4.

146:03:06 Parker: Copy that. (Pause)

146:03:13 Cernan: That is Victory.

146:03:17 Schmitt: (To Bob) We're still seeing the pit-bottom glass...(Starting again) The glass-lined, pit-bottomed craters. How's that (for terminology)? (Pause)

146:03:30 Parker: Otherwise known as...

146:03:31 Schmitt: That's geology-ese if I ever heard it.

146:03:32 Parker: ...the GLPBC.

146:03:36 Schmitt: Took you a while (to come up with the acronym), didn't it?

146:03:43 Parker: It's 11 o'clock (p.m. Central Standard Time) down here, guys.

146:03:48 Cernan: It's 11 o'clock up here, too, Bob.

[Schmitt - "A coincidental thing at this point in the transcript is that Professor McKinstry - after whom Van Serg Crater (Station 9) is named - had done a paper on geologese in which he made fun of what geologists sometimes use as terminology."]

["These pit-bottom craters really were quite common. I think that the depth of the bench in a pit-bottom crater varied with size. So I suspect, then, that it has to do with a relationship between the impact energy and the confinement of the regolith with depth. The more energy you have, the deeper it can penetrate before you have a hiatus in the relationship between confinement pressure, if you will, in the regolith and the excavation capability of the impact. I'm sure the soil mechanics people would have better ways to put that; but some of those pits were remarkable and, in my mind, it's a little hard to understand how those craters formed. It may reflect what people have said these impacts really are: small linear explosions. Near the upper surface, where there's no confinement, you get essentially a point explosion-type excavation. But, as you get near the depth of maximum penetration, you get more of a linear explosion back out. Who knows? They were quite common and the fresh ones, like all of the fresh craters, had a little glass in the bottom of them. I suspect they are prevalent everywhere on the Moon, but you're going to have to be clever to recognize them in the pictures. In a few places we sampled the glass and (in one case) even tried to get an oriented sample. One of the theories was that these impacts would cause local magnetic anomalies and we wanted to see if, as the glass cooled through the Curie point, it would retain memory of the field."]

[Jack's next four photos are AS17-133- 20274 to 20277.]
146:03:51 Cernan: There's a square boulder. Look at that one!

146:03:55 Schmitt: Yeah, it's square all right...or at least one side of it is.

146:04:00 Cernan: No, three sides of it are square. It just fractured that way. That's by accident, looking at it. So how do we get over here?

146:04:06 Schmitt: Go left, probably. And along the rim.

146:04:08 Cernan: Yeah, that's where I'm going to go. Hold on.

146:04:12 Schmitt: I'm holding. (Pause; brief static) Whew! (To Bob) If Charlie is smiling because my hands are tired, why did he let me get the charge off? (Assuming a slightly sarcastic tone) Fine backup crew we got. (Pause)

[Training photo 72-H-1411 shows back-up LMP Charlie Duke deploying a charge from his Rover seat.]
146:04:40 Parker: You guys didn't really mean to say that, did you?

146:04:46 Schmitt: 106, 3.2 (bearing and range to the SEP transmitter). We're approaching the rim of Victory. (Static; pause)

146:04:57 Schmitt: And the LMP frame count is somewhere around seven...Well, eight-five, maybe.

[Cernan - "Dust was getting to be a big problem. This was a long EVA and we'd done a lot of driving. I don't think dust was a problem reading the Rover console because that was pretty vertical, but I noticed at one of the earlier stations I dusted the top of my RCU so that I could read it better."]

[Jack's photos taken during the approach to Victory are AS17-133- 20278 and 20279.]

146:05:03 Cernan: That's Victory; look at it go to the left and look at it go to the right. That's Victory; we're right on the ridge.

146:05:07 Schmitt: Yeah. Yeah.

146:05:09 Parker: Okay; and we're picking...

146:05:11 Cernan: We're at 106, 3....

146:05:12 Parker: ...on a Rover pan, you guys...Copy that (bearing/range readout).

146:05:14 Cernan: 106, 3.2.

[The checklist location is 107/2.8.]
146:05:18 Schmitt: Okay, let's see.

146:05:19 Cernan: Tell me where you want that thing (the seismic charge) and we'll get a pan around it.

146:05:21 Schmitt: Okay, I tell you what. You see right ahead of you?

146:05:24 Cernan: Yeah.

146:05:25 Schmitt: (It) looks like a place you could spin a profile on.

146:05:28 Cernan: Yeah, I could do it. Right up in here.

146:05:31 Schmitt: And deploy the charge. Tell me where you're going.

146:05:35 Cernan: I'm going, right here; you could put it in that hole. No, you don't want to do that.

146:05:41 Schmitt: Oh, that's all right.

[Schmitt - "I don't think the antenna (on the charge) had to see the Central Station. There was a ground wave that would let you communicate. I think we had asked the Principal Investigator if there were any reasons - like coupling of the explosion - why we should avoid holes and he had said it didn't make any difference."]
146:05:42 Cernan: Just pick a spot and take your photos.

146:05:43 Schmitt: Okay, I've got them. Now, go just beyond there. Little bit more. That's good.

146:05:54 Cernan: Okay? Okay, Bob, we're at 106, 3.2.

146:05:58 Parker: Copy that. (Pause)

[Jack's photo of the charge location is AS17-133-20280.]
146:06:05 Schmitt: Okay. Pull out (the charge antenna); pin 1 is pulled and safe. Pin (pause) 2 is pulled and safe. Pin...Boy, these are stiff this time around. (To himself) Push it in. Try again.

146:06:25 Cernan: That's a big black box. Don't pull it too hard. (Pause)

146:06:33 Schmitt: Aah. Stand by on pin 3, gang.

146:06:35 Parker: Copying that. Remember to push it all the way back in, Jack, and start from scratch.

146:06:40 Schmitt: I did; I did; I did. I remembered; I remembered.

146:06:43 Parker: Good, good, good.

[Parker says that Jack had sometimes had trouble with the charges in training.]
146:06:46 Schmitt: But now I can't get to the...

146:06:53 Cernan: Your hands are tired. Let me try it once.

146:06:55 Schmitt: No, it's not that. It's just...It's coming. Got it! Pin 3 is out and safe.

146:07:02 Parker: Copy that. (Pause)

146:07:07 Cernan: And look at the orange flag. Zowie!

[Each of the charges has an orange strip attached to the tip of the antenna for photo-identification.]

[Schmitt - "The engineers were also afraid that we would come back along our track and run over one."]

146:07:12 Parker: That's what you guys were sampling at Station 4, I bet.

146:07:17 Cernan: Huh? Yeah, it's about that orange, only not quite as bright. Same shade. Okay. Okay, let me turn my (Rover power) switch on. Hey, Bob...

[Public Affairs reports that they are only 12 minutes behind the nominal (EVA) timeline]
146:07:28 Schmitt: Wait a minute, wait a minute. Let me get that (charge) out a little more (away from the Rover).

146:07:31 Cernan: Bob, there's no question but that we're at Victory.

146:07:36 Parker: Say again there, 17.

146:07:37 Cernan: It's the first crater that looked like I thought it would.

146:07:39 Parker: Okay.

146:07:40 Cernan: (To Jack) Okay. You ready?

146:07:44 Schmitt: Let me change my (camera) setting here.

146:07:48 Cernan: Okay.

146:07:49 Schmitt: Go ahead

146:07:51 Cernan: Okay, let's get a nice Rover pan here.

[Gene will turn the Rover in a tight circle while Jack takes the Rover pan. The frames are AS17-133- 20281 to 20300.]

[Frames 20291 and 20292 show their inbound Rover tracks.}

Frames 20293 and 20294 show the west arm of Victory.]

[Frames 20296 and 20297 show the east arm.]

146:07:55 Schmitt: Okay, turn the other way first.

146:07:56 Cernan: Yeah. (Pause)

[Gene turns clockwise while taking the pan and, here, Jack may be getting him into a good position for the start.]
146:08:01 Schmitt: Take her slow.

146:08:02 Parker: And we'll get a Rover sample here before you guys leave, too, after the circular pan. (Static)

146:08:08 Schmitt: We will.

146:08:12 Cernan: Slow enough?

146:08:13 Schmitt: Yeah. (Pause) Look at the light mantle over there.

146:08:21 Cernan: You can sure see it now, can't you now?

146:08:23 Schmitt: Yeah. (Long Pause)

[The frame showing the light mantle and the Scarp is AS17-133- 20289.]
146:08:38 Cernan: Getting your (camera) settings changed fast enough?

146:08:41 Schmitt: I got it; yeah. (Pause) Okay.

[Schmitt - "You had to change the f-stop. With the Sun directly behind you it was f/11. On either side of that it was f/8. And then f/5.6 back toward the Sun. The shutter speed was 1/250th of a second. When we had color film in one of the cameras - usually in Gene's camera - we were making the first use of a brand new Kodak Ektachrome film."]

[Each of the film magazines has a decal on the top which shows recommended f-stop settings for aiming directions relative to the Sun. Jack's memory of the settings was correct. Smithsonian Institution photo by Jim Remar; courtesy Allan Needell.]

146:08:47 Cernan: Okay, let's get our Rover sample.

146:08:50 Schmitt: Okay. (Pause)

146:09:01 Schmitt: (To Bob) And the Rover sample will be from the same locality. (Pause)

[Schmitt - "It had seemed to me for a long time that with the Rover we just weren't getting enough statistical coverage of the regolith across the area, and the Rover Sampler was a way to get more samples. I don't remember how many Rover samples we got, although it wasn't as many as I'd intended to get."]
146:09:10 Cernan: Boy, it's just a couple of meters from the charge, isn't it?

146:09:12 Schmitt: Yeah. I hope I didn't put too much soil in there for you (to be able to close the bag). Wait a minute.

146:09:20 Cernan: Okay.

146:09:23 Schmitt: (To Bob) Rover sampler works just as advertised.

146:09:25 Parker: Copy that.

146:09:27 Schmitt: Not bad.

[Jack believes that, at some point during training, he had requested a tool he could use to get samples from the Rover. "It was pretty much considered my baby.". Training photo 72-H-1227 shows Jack using the sampler from his Rover seat.]
146:09:30 Cernan: Bag 43 Yankee.

146:09:33 Parker: Copy; 43 Yankee. And how about a frame count now, Jack.

146:09:39 Schmitt: I will. Stand by. You're jumping the gun occasionally but not very often.

[Schmitt - "Bob sometimes forgot to anticipate when the crew was busy."]
146:09:50 Schmitt: (Having trouble reading the frame count indicator) One hundred and six.

146:09:52 Parker: Copy...

146:09:53 Cernan: It's in the bag (SCB), Jack. Okay?

146:09:54 Parker: ...106.

146:09:57 Cernan: Okay. I guess we're ready to leave here, huh?

146:10:00 Schmitt: Well, if they don't want us to stop here, I guess we leave.

146:10:02 Parker: Roger. We're ready for you guys to leave there...

146:10:03 Cernan: No, there's nothing else here now.

146:10:04 Parker: ...and we're pressing on toward station 5.

146:10:07 Schmitt: Okay...Gene?

146:10:11 Cernan: (Looking at checklist page LMP/CDR-22) Okay, and I want to go about (on a heading of) 120.

[They will drive about 1.9 kilometers on a heading of 120 to reach the southwest rim of Camelot.]
146:10:13 Schmitt: Gene.

146:10:14 Cernan: Yeah?

146:10:15 Schmitt: Gene, can you swing out there and give me one look down north into Victory?

146:10:18 Cernan: Yeah, I can do that. I've got to go by that way anyway. (Pause) North.

146:10:25 Schmitt: Well, you know, just swing around and point north so I can look in there.

[Because they can't twist the suits and have limited field-of-view, Jack is asking Gene to turn the Rover.]

[Cernan - "Your helmet didn't move, so you had to turn your head. But the visor only let you look maybe 45 or 60 degrees to either side, so it was easier just to point the Rover."]

146:10:28 Cernan: Yeah.

146:10:29 Schmitt: I never got a good look at it.

146:10:32 Cernan: Well, it's a series of three craters. There's some boulders on the talus slope of the easternmost...eastern slope of the west...eastern slope of the southernmost crater, the one we're closest to. (Pause)

146:10:51 Cernan: Now, how does that look to you?

146:10:53 Schmitt: Well, it looks like...

146:10:55 Cernan: Okay, and there's the other...

146:10:57 Schmitt: I don't know what it looks like. The northwest end of the V has white...(correcting himself) light blocks on it - boulders - on the inner wall and right at the rim. And the northeast end of the V looks like it has somewhat darker rocks.

146:11:15 Cernan: Yeah.

146:11:16 Schmitt: Part of that is shadow, but I think they are darker. And they look like about the same as down here near the tip of the V.

146:11:22 Cernan: Got to be careful on that one, because there's one sloping away and one sloping towards us.

146:11:25 Schmitt: Yeah, I know. I've qualified it.

146:11:28 Cernan: Okay; we are rolling, by the way. And we're at 106 and...Well, we're still 3.1.

146:11:37 Parker: Yeah. Copy that. Thank you.

146:11:42 Schmitt: And the rim itself, though, of Victory is not blocky. There is some increase in fragment size, but that seems to be the result of some craters in the rim that have gotten below the debris that's covering it. I'd say that Victory's somewhat like Horatio in that it has blocky inner walls but essentially a normal block population on the rim.

146:12:09 Parker: Okay. And we've got a Rover sample going toward Station 5 (Camelot Crater) at about 103 and 2.5. (Pause)

[This is a change from the location given on checklist page LMP/CDR-25, a revision due to the fact that the LM is not at the planned landing spot. Evidently, the Backroom is interested in a particular geographic location for the sample.]
146:12:21 Cernan: Okay. 103 and 2.5.

146:12:24 Parker: Roger. And that'll be just a grid (sic) sample.

[Schmitt - "I think Bob may have been mis-using a term here. And that may be reflected in my next comment. A 'grid' sample would have been a series of samples on a map grid. So I'm not sure what he meant."]
MP3 Audio Clip ( 12 min 23 sec )

146:12:32 Schmitt: They're none of them just grid samples, Bob. (Pause; Jack laughs as Gene turns to avoid a crater)

146:12:40 Cernan: You see, you can't tell how deep they are until you get up to them.

146:12:43 Schmitt: Yeah.

146:12:44 Cernan: That one I could have gone through.

146:12:46 Schmitt: Yeah. (Pause) Okay; Station 5 is Camelot. (Pause) Good old Camelot.

[Long Pause; Jack hums at length from the Lerner and Lowe song 'Camelot': "Where once it never rained 'til after sundown," etc. Jack's next six photos are AS17-133-20301 to 20306.]
146:13:21 Cernan: Look at the size of that one. That's another one of those (GLPBC's)...

146:13:23 Schmitt: Yeah.

146:13:24 Cernan: There's another one on the right. Lookit.

146:13:26 Schmitt: Some of them have...

146:13:30 Cernan: Well, that one doesn't have any fragments in the bottom of it.

146:13:31 Schmitt: No.

146:13:32 Cernan: Looks like someone walked across it.

146:13:34 Schmitt: Yeah. (Pause) I think that there's quite a variability in the thickness of the dark mantle in here. Did you...I didn't notice us crossing that one tongue of light mantle.

146:13:43 Cernan: No, I didn't either. We obviously did...

146:13:45 Schmitt: I think we did. Right at Victory, but it didn't show up.

146:13:48 Cernan: Looking into the Sun, you can't tell any difference anyway. (Pause)

146:13:56 Schmitt: However, I tell you, I certainly get the impression there is a mantle. I would say that...

146:14:03 Cernan: Oh, I think so.

[Jack's next six photos are AS17-133-20307 to 20312.]
146:14:05 Schmitt: I don't know what it is, but the dark mantle exists. (Pause) They're just...The craters...(Pause) These craters are just too big not to have thrown up blocks. And they're either subdued by the mantle or they haven't penetrated it.

146:14:28 Cernan: And a lot of these blocks...

146:14:30 Schmitt: And I think you probably have both. Excuse me, Gene.

146:14:32 Cernan: I'd say they've been subdued by the mantle. That really imposes an impression on me.

146:14:39 Schmitt: Yeah. There are those that appear that way; like Horatio, for example, or the big ones. But others, I think, are too young. They just don't penetrate. Particularly those that are big and have bright halos.

146:14:47 Cernan: Well, yeah; but the only ones that look fresh and not (big) enough to penetrate are these little ones with the glass in then.

146:14:52 Schmitt: Well, there's been some big fresh ones. We'll look for one.

[Jack's next six photos are AS17-133-20313 to 20318.]
146:14:57 Cernan: Now there's one with glass in it, probably.

146:15:00 Schmitt: Yeah. I think that's one...

146:15:01 Cernan: And without any blocks on it. That may not have penetrated.

146:15:05 Schmitt: Yeah. Yeah, that just has mostly the shock-indurated rock...instant rock.

[The academically-favored term is "regolith breccia", soil fused into rock by an impact. "Instant rock" is better, though. AS17-133-20316 may be a photo of this crater.]

[Cernan - "We were having a little observational debate through here. Jack looked at things differently than I did because of his professional background but, on the other hand, I always thought my observations were as good as his. You describe what you see. Someone else might interpret what it is. I always felt I didn't have to tell them what it was; I had to tell them what I was looking at. If I had an impression of what it might be, I'd give them that impression. But I don't think we had time to come to any absolute conclusions nor was it expected of us. We were on the Rover and we were moving and we had to give good enough observations that a geologist could put them together and come up with a pretty fair description of what these craters were all about."]

146:15:13 Cernan: We're coming up to 103 at 2.6 now, so we need a sample up here.

146:15:17 Schmitt: Okay.

146:15:18 Cernan: Okay. 103, 2.5. Anywhere.

146:15:22 Parker: Roger. That's affirm.

146:15:23 Cernan: Okay, let me slowly go to the right here.

146:15:25 Schmitt: Okay. Right out in that little inter-crater area, right out in there is good. If you let me guide you a little, I might get a rock fragment. Whoa, whoa, whoa.

146:15:34 Cernan: (Garbled)

146:15:36 Schmitt: Yeah. That wasn't quite enough.

146:15:41 Cernan: Okay. Pick a place.

146:15:42 Schmitt: Move ahead about...Yeah, right...Just...No, that's good. Straight ahead. Straight ahead. Good, good, good, good, good, good, whoa! (Pause) Now we'll give it a try.

146:15:55 Cernan: Okay, 103, 2.5.

146:15:58 Parker: Copy that.

146:16:00 Cernan: And that battery is still at about 132.

146:16:02 Parker: Okay. Copy that. We're allowed to go to 140, tonight.

146:16:10 Cernan: I don't expect we'll make it (past 140). I think we'll get done before that. Save that for tomorrow. I'll tell you those batteries deserve any temperature they want today, after going up that...

146:16:21 Schmitt: That's the soil.

146:16:24 Cernan: ...that Scarp. (Pause) Okay. The soil is in 44 Yankee.

146:16:30 Parker: Copy; 44 Yankee. (Long Pause)

146:16:44 Schmitt: That block's too big. I can't get it. Too big!

146:16:49 Cernan: Okay. Get your picture?

146:16:51 Schmitt: No. (Pause) Okay, got mine. (Pause)

[The sample documentation photo is AS17-133-20319. Gene doesn't have any film left in his camera and will change magazines once they get to Camelot.]
146:17:01 Cernan: Okay. What's the...Well, we'll find Camelot.

146:17:04 Schmitt: And 125's the LMP frame count.

146:17:08 Parker: Copy that. And just press on the same heading you've been carrying there, Gene, and that will get you to Camelot.

146:17:17 Cernan: We want the southwestern edge, huh?

[LMP/CDR-26 shows the planned Station 5 location based on Apollo 15 photographs.]
146:17:20 Schmitt: Do you want to go where Station 5 is, Bob (that is, to the planned spot on the southwest rim)?

146:17:23 Parker: That's my understanding, Jack. So press on towards there unless I tell you otherwise.

146:17:29 Schmitt: Well, but you were talking about changing Station 5. I think Station 5 is a pretty good spot (as is).

146:17:34 Parker: Roger. And I think that's where we want to go. I'm just trying to verify that. You can go in that direction, though. I'll get with you if it's not.

146:17:42 Schmitt: Okay. (Pause) It's probably the most concentrated boulder field on Camelot.

146:17:48 Parker: Okay. You know where it is, and we think it's about 092 and 1.6.

[They will stop at 086/1.4.]
146:17:56 Cernan: 092 and 1.6. You know this country...

146:18:00 Parker: Roger. But you know where it is, so you'll find it when you get there.

146:18:02 Cernan: ...is rug(ged)...is undu(lating)...

146:18:04 Schmitt: It's different. (Pause) Wonder where Horatio is?

146:18:14 Cernan: Well, we're going to run into something in a minute if it's...It (Horatio)'s probably right over that rim on the right, Jack. Right off your right hand at 2 o'clock.

146:18:21 Schmitt: Right. I guess so. You know, it doesn't have boulders on it.

146:18:24 Cernan: It should be over there. That should be it right over that rim. You know, I see why Al (Shepard) and Ed (Mitchell) had trouble walking up Cone Crater (on Apollo 14). You could stand right on the edge of the rim of a crater and not know it's there.

146:18:36 Schmitt: Yup. (Pause)

[Jack's next five pictures are AS17-133-20320 to 20324, shows this part of the traverse.]
146:18:48 Schmitt: (Thinking back to Shorty) Man, that was spectacular. It's color on the Moon! Whooo!

146:18:51 Cernan: It was really orange! (To Bob) Could you see that color on the television? (Pause)

146:18:58 Schmitt: No answer.

146:19:00 Cernan: I'll bet they couldn't.

146:19:02 Parker: No, we couldn't see it, Gene. (Garbled) guys...

146:19:05 Cernan: (To Jack) Look at the Sculptured Hills. (Responding to Bob) Okay. I'm sure glad I went up to take that second pan (at Shorty) to see that stuff go radially down into the center of the crater at that contact.

146:19:14 Schmitt: Yeah, that's good.

146:19:17 Cernan: Hope that comes out.

146:19:19 Schmitt: Doesn't make any difference. It's there (whether the picture) comes out or not. Okay. Sculptured...

[Schmitt - "That was the field geologist talking. When you're a field geologist and you say something's there and you put it on your map, you expect that people will trust you without a photograph. And Gene was thinking 'Nobody'll believe us unless there's a picture of it.'"]

[Cernan - "A picture adds a lot to your description, particularly if you're in a hurry like we were at Shorty."]

146:19:26 Cernan: Okay. Look at...Look at up...up the (Wessex) Cleft over there. You can see definite change in albedo now between the North Massif and the Sculptured Hills. Lookit, right up the valley. Well, you can't see it...Let me...

146:19:36 Schmitt: (Laughing) You're right.

[Jack's view may have been blocked by the high-gain; or Gene may have turned the Rover.]
146:19:39 Cernan: You got to see this. See that?

146:19:45 Schmitt: Yeah. But, again, that may be your photometric effects.

146:19:50 Cernan: Yeah, one's an upslope and one's a downslope.

146:19:52 Schmitt: Yeah. Yeah. Just about right; but it's supposed to be darker in the cleft you know. (Pause) I guess I've been on...(To Bob) LMP's back to Minimum.

146:20:12 Parker: Roger. Thank you. (Pause)

146:20:18 Schmitt: Whoa! Whoop, whoop, whoop!

146:20:23 Cernan: I wish I had a movie picture of us driving.

146:20:26 Schmitt: You're doing the driving.

146:20:29 Parker: Who's going to take it?

146:20:30 Cernan: That (movie) would be the classic of the century. (Responding to Bob ) Well, there must be somebody out there. (Pause)

146:20:40 Schmitt: Bob, the fragment population - we're at 099/2.0 - is still about the one-percent category of...And it's hard to tell, going into the Sun, what kind of blocks you're dealing with. But my guess is - well, more than a guess - (is that) most of them look like they're slightly vesicular. And, in that regard, resemble the gabbros.

146:21:19 Parker: Okay, copy that.

146:21:21 Schmitt: There's a class of boulders that is flat topped and fairly-well rounded that is just about completely buried. Only the...Not more than (about) 5 centimeters of it projects above the surface. We've seen those off and on, both days. Remember, Geno?

146:21:43 Cernan: Yeah.

146:21:45 Schmitt: And they seem to be quite distinct. At least you notice them. Now, whether it's just a continuation of the mantling, I don't know. But most other boulders - the big ones - seem to project above the surface more than just that 5 or 10 centimeters. (Pause)

[At 113:23:22, about twenty minutes after the landing, Gene commented on partially-buried boulders he'd seen and tried to avoid during the final approach.]
146:22:09 Cernan: I tell you, the Sculptured Hills just have that wrinkled old-face feeling.

146:22:13 Schmitt: Yeah. There are blocks over there though, aren't there?

146:22:16 Cernan: There's blocks, but I don't see any concentrated outcrops...

146:22:18 Schmitt: No.

146:22:19 Cernan: ...or concentrated masses of blocks up on the slope anywhere...

146:22:23 Schmitt: Possibly...

146:22:24 Cernan: ...like you did on the Massif.

146:22:25 Schmitt: Possibly due...

146:22:26 Cernan: Oh. Do you think that's Camelot or not?

146:22:27 Schmitt: I think that might be Camelot.

[Jack's next three pictures, AS17-133-20325 to 20327, shows the approach to Station 5. In frame 20325, boulders on the rim are visible in the glare of the Sun.]
146:22:29 Cernan: Look at that!

146:22:30 Schmitt: Nice shot.

146:22:32 Cernan: Look at that. Right on the southeastern ...

146:22:34 Schmitt: Now, wait a minute.

146:22:35 Cernan: ...(Correcting himself) southwestern rim.

146:22:36 Schmitt: Yeah, yeah.

146:22:37 Cernan: (Perhaps looking at LMP/CDR-22) Yeah, because Horatio's got to be on our right. Well, wait a minute, doggone it.

146:22:41 Schmitt: It's not Horatio, is it?

146:22:43 Cernan: Well, we're at 094, 1.7.

146:22:46 Parker: Stand by. (Pause)

[They are approaching the west rim of Camelot.]
146:22:52 Schmitt: No, I think that's Camelot. Horatio didn't...

146:22:53 Cernan: That's too...That's too...

146:22:54 Schmitt: ...have blocks that far up the rim.

146:22:55 Cernan: ...Let me...Yeah, let me look in the bottom. I'll tell you. I remember.

146:22:58 Schmitt: Yeah.

146:23:00 Parker: That kind of sounds like Camelot to us.

146:23:01 Schmitt: (Garbled) these blocks (garbled)...

146:23:05 Cernan: Yeah. Yeah, that's it, Bob. We're coming right up at Station 5. Right at it.

146:23:07 Parker: Okay.

146:23:10 Schmitt: Only way to fly. (Pause) Okay. You going to park up on the rim so they can have a good (TV) panorama?

146:23:19 Cernan: Yes, sir. I'd like to get a little on the other side of those blocks, if I can.

146:23:24 Schmitt: Yeah, you better. Then they can look with the Sun on them (the rocks).

[They will park just east of a group of meter-sized boulders. By parking east of the blocks, they will give Houston a view of them in full sunlight.]
146:23:27 Cernan: Yeah. Because, otherwise, they can't see that other rim over there. (Pause)
[Gene also wants to give Houston a view of the blocks on the east wall of the crater.]
146:23:35 Cernan: Same heading. So, I'll be all right, there. Yeah. I'll get to the other side. Then they can look at these blocks and those across the way. I got to go around this block field, though. (Pause)

146:23:49 Schmitt: I should hope so! (Pause) I missed seeing Druid (Crater). (Pause) There's Horatio back there! I can see Horatio now.

146:24:04 Cernan: Okay.

[If they are seeing Horatio, Gene must be headed west or southwest as he turns to get around the boulder field.]
146:24:05 Schmitt: Looks just like it did before.

146:24:07 Cernan: So, we came right where we were supposed to.

146:24:10 Schmitt: All the blocks look very much the same in the wall of Horatio.

146:24:15 Cernan: There's a path through...

146:24:16 Schmitt: Watch it. Watch it! (Static) Okay.

146:24:20 Cernan: Well, that's a test.

[They've run over a rock with the wire wheel.]
146:24:23 Schmitt: That was a good one.

146:24:24 Cernan: That was a good test. Didn't let any air out of that tire, did it?

146:24:29 Schmitt: No, I don't think so.

146:24:32 Cernan: Talk about a block field!

146:24:36 Schmitt: I think my guess of 30 percent (block coverage of the surface) was reasonably good before. Where are you going to park. Right over there?

146:24:43 Cernan: I'll park right over here, so that they can look in it.

146:24:45 Schmitt: Okay. (Brief static)

MP3 Audio Clip ( 5 min 45 sec )

146:24:49 Cernan: Okay. Yeah; I got to head 045, so I head right into those blocks. (Long Pause)

146:25:08 Schmitt: You still got to turn, remember?

146:25:09 Cernan: Yeah, that's why I want to leave myself a little room over there.

146:25:12 Schmitt: Whoa.

146:25:15 Cernan: Okay, Bob. We're stopped. 086 and 1.4.

146:25:19 Parker: Okay. (Pause)


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